Monday, May 2, 2011

Tweaked Lists

Hey there folks, long time no see!  I've been in the depths of 'broken internets'land, and it kind of sucked.  But I'm back now, and hopefully have some fun stuff to share with you.  Especially today, I want to talk about my new lists I'll be taking, for three different armies:  Dark Eldar, Salamanders, and (hypothetically) Grey Knights.  I want your input!

Alright, so which to do first?  I guess my first will be the Grey Knights, since they don't really exist yet, and the change is the least drastic.

Here's my old list:

Libby w/ 5 powers
Crowe

5x Terminators w/ Psycannon
5x Purifiers w/ 3x Halberds, 2x Psycannons, Psyback (Razorback w/ psybolt ammo)
5x Purifiers w/ 3x Halberds, 2x Psycannons, Psyback
5x Purifiers w/ 3x Halberds, 2x Psycannons, Psyback
5x Purifiers w/ 3x Halberds, 2x Psycannons, Psyback
5x Purifiers w/ 3x Halberds, 2x Psycannons, Psyback

Psyfleman Dread
Psyfleman Dread
Psyfleman Dread

It was alright, and it still looks good.  But I decided the Termies didn't do a whole lot other than die horrible deaths.  I still really wanted to have the librarian for his toolbox amazingness, and lots of purifiers.  So, I tweaked it.

Current List:

Librarian w/ 6 Powers
Crowe

10x Terminators w/ Brotherhood Banner, Psybolt Ammo, 2x Psycannons
5x Purifiers w/ 2x Psycannons, 3x Halberds, Psyback
5x Purifiers w/ 2x Psycannons, 3x Halberds, Psyback
5x Purifiers w/ 2x Psycannons, 3x Halberds, Psyback
5x Purifiers w/ 2x Psycannons, 3x Halberds, Psyback


Psyfleman
Psyfleman
Psyfleman

(2015)

The only real tweak is replacing a purifier squad for a much bigger (and better) termie squad for the Libby to hang out in.

So, it's a little bit over points-wise, but I think that the Libbybunker will do well for itself.  There isn't a unit in the game that doesn't cringe charging into a unit that is I6 all the way through, but also has 33 attacks when charged and can get +2S (well, one from -1T to enemy, one from Hammerhand), or can choose to auto-activate force weapons.  If they don't, the unit can shoot, score, and charge stuff.  Good bubblewrap unit as well.

The Purifiers are fun, laying down ridiculous amounts of firepower, and the rhinos do the same, as do the Psyflemen.  Lots and lots of shots going down, with great counter-assault ability.  Put Crowe in one of the razors, and get him into combat with an HQ, or a Klaw Nob, or whatever.

The truth about Crowe:  he's not as bad as everyone says he is.  He'll kill an enemy character on a 3+ most often (assuming his power goes off), and when he doesn't, he can tie squads up, potentially kill entire tactical squads, etc.  Is he worth 150?  Maybe not.  But he's also not the terrible 'ah shite, I have to pay 150 points to get Purifiers as troops' tax the internets says he is.  /shrug

So, let's get into the next list, Salamanders.  Let's just skip into the current list:

Vulkan (haha, duh?)
Librarian w/ Null Zone, Avenger

5x TH/SS Termies

10x Tactical Marines w/ Multi-melta, Meltagun, Combi-Melta, Power Fist, Rhino
10x Tactical Marines w/ Multi-melta, Flamer, Combi-flamer, Power Fist, Rhino
10x Tactical Marines w/ Multi-melta, Flamer, Combi-flamer, Power Fist, Rhino

Land Raider Redeemer w/ Extra Armor, Multi-Melta

3x Land Speeders w/ MM/HF
3x Attack Bikes w/ Multi-Meltas
3x Attack Bikes w/ Multi-Meltas

It's at like 1990 or something.  The list is pretty straightforward- face it, it's what every Salamander player plays, except for some reason, I never see them play with Attack Bikes.  In my experience, they do work.  Even if they do die like sacks of... erm, something, they usually end up popping a tank or two first, which I'm generally willing to overpay for.  Tanks are ridiculously hard to kill this edition, and killing the dudes is generally far easier.

The fists are in there because I like them to be in there.  Lol, I've heard it so hotly debated on the internets that tactical marines shouldn't have fists, but ya know what- I think in this situation, they can.  I need more close combat than simply a single Termie squad + Vulkan, and these guys can provide that.  Really, a charge from 20 marines +2 fists can do some damage to whatever they hit.

Don't worry, I won't use them as primarily combat troops.  I want them mostly to just sit in their bunkers and score/multi-melta stuff.  But I think in the end, the tactical flexibility to be able to threaten Monstrous Creatures as well as troops makes them worthwhile.

My third list is Dark Eldar.  I've been thinking a lot about it, and well... it's not a 'for sure' thing, but I like this one a lot:

Baron Sathonyx
1x Haemonculus

6x Incubi w/ Klaivex, Raider w/ Flickerfield, Aethersails, Grizly Trophies

19x Hellions w/ Squad Leader, Poisoned Weapon
3x Wracks w/ Venom w/ 2x Splinter Cannons
5x Warriors w/ Blaster, Venom w/ 2x Splinter Cannons
5x Warriors w/ Blaster, Venom w/ 2x Splinter Cannons
5x Warriors w/ Blaster, Venom w/ 2x Splinter Cannons

3x Beastmasters, 5x Khymerae (dudes w/ 4+ invuln), 4x Razorwing Flocks (dudes w/ 5A, 5W, and Rending)
6x Reavers w/ 2x Heat Lances, Squad Leader
6x Reavers w/ 2x Heat Lances, Squad Leader

Ravager w/ Flickerfield
Ravager w/ Flickerfield
Ravager w/ Flickerfield

Lots of things going on here.  Same number of splinter shots, but slightly less anti-tank.  Let's do a tally of anti-tank:

4 Heat Lances (S6 Melta/Lance AP1)
10 Dark Lances
3 Blasters

so... for shooting, just 17 guns, and none of them is what I'd call amazing.  I like the heat lances, but the Dark Lances are only glorified missile launchers.  The things I took out:

3x Reavers from one squad w/ 1 heat lance
3x Reavers from the other squad w/ 1 heat lance
5x Warriors w/ Blaster
2x Haemonculi (which were meant to go into the bigger reaver squads)

In return I put in:

6x Incubi w/ Klaivex
Beastmaster Squad w/ 24 Rending attacks, 20 S4 attacks, and 6 S3 attacks

And... guess that's it.  Here's the reasoning:

  • I needed help against Blood angels, and other good marine squads.  Splinter weapons and mundane attacks are all well and good, until you meet mass FNP on top of a 3+ save.  The Incubi can both assassinate the stupid priest, and murder the squad he's attached to.  Maybe they'll die in return, but it's worth it- less than 200 points for somewhere close to 400, with the priest included.
  • I needed something to kill the guys in transports.  The whole army is predicated (against mech gunlines) on me getting a massive S5 60-attack multi-charge in with my Hellions against tanklines.  That number of attacks is enough to at least shut them up for a while, if not destroy the entire line.  In other words, the hellions are dedicated as anti-tank in games like that.  They have no time to waste on guard falling out of their chimeras, since if I'm realistic, they'll need to be on-duty to kill tanks the entire game.
  • So I added the incubi (heh, overkill anyone?) and the Beasts, who all have cleanup detail.  Killing 30 or so guardsmen with only splinter weaponry is somewhat ridiculous to try to attempt when they're in cover, and the beasts are perfect for the job, since they can fleet and charge 12".
  • Beastmasters also kill/shake/stun tanks pretty well, since they have so many rending attacks.  Just another way to be multi-purpose, I suppose.
  • The 9-man reaver squads were just too expensive.  Not only were the squads in total 250 points each, I also had a Haemonculi in there to give them FNP.  300 points for a unit with BASE T3, and no great CC prowess, is the way to fail, if you ask me.  600 points total is... just too much.  The squads are much more efficient for their points- 300 total is much more doable.
So, bottom line, more versatility for slightly less anti-tank shooting.  Let's face it- the 3 lance weapons I lost wouldn't have done a lot more against AV12 anyways- I was already going to depend on the Hellions.  This way spreads the threats out a little more, and gives me more tactical flexibility against more armies.  Plus- the beasts and incubi are models I really really want to include in the army.  I'm excited :)

Thoughts on anything?  I want to know what you think of the lists.  Tomorrow I'll start on the pile of lists I need to help critique.

10 comments:

Nikephoros said...

My thoughts on the updated GK list, you can safely ditch the Halberds on the Purifiers. Those 3 halberds per squad aren't going to transform them into combat badasses, and the points you save will help a bit.

For big squads of Purifiers, go with Halberds, for MSU, keep em as cheap and shooty as possible.

tzeentchling said...

What worries me most about the Sallies list is that you have no long-range firepower. There's nothing that can soften the enemy up for turns 1-2/3 when all your multimeltas get in range, especially in something like spearhead deployment. I'd want to include some Preds or AC Dreads, maybe Typhoons instead of MM/HF speeders.

LittleNicky said...

The Dark Eldar list looks pretty decent. Questions/critique: What is the purpose of the Haemonculus and the wracks? Just another scoring unit? Are you planning on starting the Haemonculus with the giant Hellion unit to give them a free pain token? Also, for your anti tank you said you are banking on a mass s5 multi assault with the Hellions; are you banking on a combat drug result to get them to s5, or banking on a pain token from killing something squishy + the pain token from the Haemie at the start?

I can tell you from experience your incubi will probably always get shot down 1st. They are awesome in assualt, but be careful against units that have any sort of invul and power weapons that can hit back. I've only used beast packs twice, but I am sold, they flurry of attacks from the birds and wound allocation shenanigans makes them worth it.

I'll let other people comment on the power armor lists

Xaereth said...

Nike: You're probably right, I just love the idea of I6 dudes, lol. With the nemesis force weapons, it also hopefully gives pause to MCs and characters charging in. But, you're probably right :(

tzeentchling: Yeah, you're also right. I like having long range firepower, but I can't really think of a way to do that efficiently. You're right that preds and dreads are one way, but I can't think of a way to have meaningful long range and still have melta/flamers everywhere. I honestly think that's the problem with Vulkan lists- no way to make full use of his benefits without sacrificing something (like... long range firepower)

Nicky: Um, yeah. Maybe I should have said it earlier- it's been said in earlier posts, but I shouldn't assume people have read those.

Haemonculus joins the hellions, and the Baron joins the wracks at the start of the game. Then when it's my turn, the haemonculus gets out of the unit (leaving the Pain Token) and the Baron leaves the wracks (taking the Pain Token), joining the Hellions, and giving them 2 pain tokens. The Haemonculus + Wracks hang out together, waiting to score, or get in the way, or whatever.

So no, I'm not at all depending on drugs. +1S is for sure the best I could get in a tank-hunting scenario, but it would be foolhardy to depend on it. Getting the FNP + FC should be a different matter though.

Glad you like the beasts, hopefully they do well. And, if people target the incubi, then they aren't shooting my ravagers or venoms, which are more important to my gameplan.

Thanks for the feedback guys, keep it coming :)

LittleNicky said...

Ah it all makes sense now, guess I should read posts further down haha. The Hellion unit should be pretty fun as a tank hunter unit.

Concerning the Incubi, for the exact reasons you mentioned I like to use them as a psychological weapon against my opponent. :)

Overall I really like your DE list. You will have to tell me how well the flickerfields work for you as I always decide against them due to the fact that I can't roll 5+ to save my life on saves.

tzeentchling said...

Three options, I'd say. 1)Drop the speeders, change the power fists to power weapons, and use the 10 spare points to get 2 AC/AC dreads.
2)Drop the speeders and two power fists to get 2 AC/Las preds, or 3 Dakka Preds.
3)Drop two power fists to upgrade to 3 Typhoons. I think I like the first change the best, but YMMV. Taking some HKM might be a good option too, but I never really like one-shot missile launchers.

Black Blow Fly said...

I would find the points to upgrade the GK terms to Pallies and rack up two more psycannons in that unit.

Definitely stick with the Incubi - they have their place in your list.

G

Xaereth said...

Tzling:

Heh, I think you've hit on something there. I think I will do a variation of your suggested tweaks, which is: Take out 3 MM Attack Bikes, take out 3 Fists, and add two riflemen, losing 15 other points somewhere. The fists aren't doing enough for me to care about preserving the 'extra' the PW give, and I'd prefer to keep the options the speeders give me (plus, the MMAB's aren't painted, the speeders are :-p) So... thanks for the input, I think it really makes the list quite a bit better. :)

BBF: Hm, I'd for sure like to have paladins, but the thing is, the only way I could upgrade them is to lose a Purifier squad. If I did that, I'd go from 5 scoring units to 3. But yeah... paladins would be a lot better. One option I guess is to just make a smaller squad of pallies... hm. Not sure what to do with that lol. I'll think on it!

Thanks for the input all, it's much appreciated :)

tzeentchling said...

You could also drop 1 unit of bikes and 1 speeder (so two single squads, which would be more useful), which is 220+10 spare. 20 points then to drop, a single powerfist would do it, or two fists down to weapons (like in the non-melta squads). But I like symmetry like that, so I suppose it's a personal decision.

Black Blow Fly said...

Most of my armies only have three troops... It's not so bad. :p

Look at this way - each Paladin is basically a character in their own right.

G