Monday, March 14, 2011

Email in: 1750 Vanilla Marine List

Hey there folks, for this fine Friday, we have an email asking for comments on a Marine list.  So, let's take a look at the email first, then I'll talk about it afterward.

The Email:

Just wanted to say hi and show you my current list. Please do post it.
Like I said
in a recent comment I decided to change my Blood Angles
because I did not like how they played. Lots of back-packs to buy,
lol. If you have extra time, please email me back.

1x Librarian
    (null zone/gate of infinity)

1x Pedro Kantor

1x Terminator squad
   5 more
   2 cyclone missle launchers

2xTactical squad
   5 more
   Plasma gun
   Plasma cannon


   Devastator squad
   2 missle launchers
   2 lascannons


Sternguard veteran squad
2 more
2 plasma cannons
3 combi-plasma
power weapon (points filler, would of got more combi-plasma/melta but not enough m to buy models in the squad to buy 3, so i just went with a pw)

Exact Total=1750

I am not really going to go go into tactics (kind of obvious what I
will do). For missions with objective or similar goals I can gate
tactical squads onto the objective. Usually my terminators will gate
around trying to get side/rear armor, and if the enemy is an assault based force, can counter charge. I will will always deploy in a castle formation. Pedro is there for the +1 attack (3 attack tactical marines!), also he gives me another scoring unit.


 My Response:

Hm, interesting list.  I like the 10x Terminators for some reason, though I'm traditionally not really a fan.  There are a few tweaks I'd like to point out first, and then we can get a little more in-depth.

First, the plasma cannons.  I know it's tempting, to be able to use all that AP2 on a marine squad that is clustered up, but honestly, it's not going to do a whole lot of good.  Against a skilled player, you'll generally get 1 or hopefully 2 marines under your template with a plasma cannon.  With the prevalence of cover saves in 5th edition, even marines that you hit are usually going to get a 4+ save.  Against Monstrous Creatures, it doesn't even wound on a 2+, and against multi-wound T4 models, you won't even insta-death them.  Against terminators, it's even harder to get good hits, since their base size is so large.  In addition, they are only good against races who actually care about their armor save.  That leaves... marines.  Every other race has a 4+ or worse, which they'll be getting in cover anyways.  So, I'd recommend missile launchers or maybe las cannons instead.  Much better impact on multiple facets of the game.  In general, missile launchers will be the better buy.  For the tactical squads, I'd like Multi-meltas best, since they're free and (you'll see my advice lower down) can bunker up in a rhino nicely.

Second, the devastators.  I like las cannons as much as any man, but for 15 points more than a missile launcher, you really aren't getting much bang for your buck.  I don't generally like lone dev squads in any marine list, but it's especially bad in the Vanilla Marine codex, since they're so expensive.  If you must have devs, then I recommend dropping the las cannons for missiles.  They'll be slightly less versatile, but still have the needed punch to open dedicated transports.

With the points taken from the las cannons/plasma cannons, I'd say get some rhinos for your squads.  The lack of mobility in this army is likely it's largest weakness.  Being able to get your guys to places they need to be for support is pretty useful, generally.  It also protects scoring units.

If you absolutely don't want rhinos, I suppose you can maintain the castle, but you need more potent anti-tank fire in general.  Sticking in a couple Melta Attack Bikes would go a long way toward helping this, or a few MM speeders.  As it is, you do need more ability to kill AV14 - this list has a grand total of 4 weapons that can even potentially kill a Land Raider, and 2 of them you can only use once- and the footslogging meltas aren't going to have a great success rate against that sort of armor.  You might get lucky against a single Land Raider.  You won't win a game against 2 or 3 land raiders.  Or 3 Battlewagons.  You get the picture.

By dropping the various plasma cannons for missile launchers, you get quite a few points left over.  With these points I'd do the following things, if at all possible:

  • Add MM Attack Bikes (or some other fast, good-ranged melta)
  • Add transports
  • Add combi-plasmas to your Sternguard.  Like, give all 7 of them Combi's.
You won't have the points to do all those things, but you'll have enough to do some of them.  The first one is generally the best option, followed by the 2nd, then the 3rd, in way of priority.

The terminators + the libby is a cool idea, and you are indeed right that for their purposes, the libby really needs to be an epistolary.  It's a good 'finesse' unit, which will reward good play as you learn to use them better and better.  Just be mindful that this 'deathstar' would get completely rocked by any other deathstar out there, thunderwolves included.  Use them wisely and it might not be terrible.  But keep it in mind.  Assault Terminators might honestly be the better choice, despite the lack of shooting.

So, those are some things to think about.  It's a good start to a list- castles can be tough nuts to crack.  Just remember that your particular castle needs as much efficient shooting as possible, to take advantage of every turn.  You only have a single layer of 'bubble wrap' (the terminators) before the rest of your list can be charged.  Against many aggressive lists, this might truly not be enough.

Thanks for sending in your list, hope this helps some :)


Thor said...

FYI, all the text is black instead of the usual white making it hard to read.

Xaereth said...

Hm, thanks. I'm not sure why/how that happened. Appreciate it tho! :)

Kirk said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Zachary said...

Sorry I haven't been around for awhile, Internets been down, after I sent the list, I thought of a few changes (after the 1st dev. squad it says 'same', means I have two):

I got rid of the sternguard (and the epistolary upgrade) for two rhinos with extra armor, put power fist in the tactical squads, and two HB razorbacks for the devestators, I am thinking about the plasma cannon,lascannon thing, and if I line the terminators up, the can give cover to my rhinos (constant 4+ smoke, ahhhh) the rhinos are mainly for protection. I am thinking of ways to incorporate attack bikes. *razorbacks w/ heavy bolters are 5 points more than a rhino, so why not?