Thursday, January 20, 2011

FAQ Internets List Fail

Well, let's start off with me saying that I don't think (at all) that it was a fail by GW to have released the new FAQs to help 'modernize' the older books.  I think it's great, and I really hope that sales will reflect this choice so that GW will continue doing it.  I am however, saying that I think the internets' response to this FAQ was a little... over exaggerated.

So, what lists have you been seeing all over the internets for the 'new' Templars and Dark Angels?  I'll tell you what I've seen (like, almost everywhere, with a few exceptions):  5x5 Assault Terminator squads that have a 3++ save and cyclone missile launcher, supported by 3 typhoons.  16 missile shots a turn for the awesome!  Close combat perfection!  Pure Win!

...or not.  I guess I simply don't understand what these people think they're going to do against orks.  Seriously, just because Stelek thinks Orks suck doesn't mean that people don't bring them to tournaments and simply crush lists like this.  For that matter, any sort of swarm army would mean a sad end to this list.

Let's looks at the 'core' of the matter though.  What I see, when I see 5x5 terminators, are 5 small and extremely slow squads of dudes.  In a game where mobility is likely the most important part of the game, this army lacks.  A footslogging squad like this has no real way to ensure getting the charge (to take advantage of their main way of killing things- close combat).  Instead, they're generally going to be getting charged by combat armies with way more mobility.

Though the possibility to counter charge remains for the DA player, the tempo will generally always be in the hands of the more mobile player.  In this case, footslogging termies fail.

I also want to point out that even against non close combat armies they lack something.  Against mech guard, 16 missiles will kill about 1 AV12 vehicle/turn.  Against mech IG, 6 of those missile launchers will get (at best) one shot off before the AV10 of the support speeders kills them.

I simply don't see the awesomesauce of the army, run the way the internets are saying to run it.  Templars are in roughly the same boat, except without scoring Termies.  Sure, the termies are way more mobile and have Preferred Enemy, but in the end, if you're footslogging Termies, like I keep going back to, you yield the tempo of the game to your opponent.

Now I should take the time to say that while I don't think this current list is viable, it doesn't mean that there aren't competitive builds out there for these books now, utilizing terminators.  I honestly don't know yet.  I simply think that people have been wanting their out of date Terminators to be good for so long, that now that they are finally on par with 'standard' terminators from the other books, people immediately jump to the conclusion that terminators are good.

While they can be good in the right context, I don't think 25-30 scoring terminators with (really shitty) speeder missile support is going to win a GT.  Maybe I'm wrong.  Point me toward battle reports that prove me wrong.  Or any at all using this style list.  Theoryhammer is one thing- hard results matter more though.

What's your take on it?  What's a viable list with DA or Templars now?


Nikephoros said...

You took the words right out of my mouth. What do they say about great minds thinking alike?

Black Blow Fly said...

I agree 100 percent. Probably GW revised the FAQs since the new GKs are gonna be really sicko or so I keep hearing.

Beast_a_la_Mode said...

I agree with you partly, I think that DA can make a really good, competitive list now but I don't think it involves as much termi spam as people have been advocating, this is the list I want to try.

Belial- 130
Lightning claws

Samael- 205
On Speeder

Deathwing Terminator Squad - 290
3x th/ss, 2x LC, Apothecary, Standard, CMl

Deathwing Terminator Squad- 235
3x th/ss, 2x LC, CML

Deathwing Terminator Squad- 235
3x th/ss, 2x LC, CML

Ravenwing Attack Squadron- 190
2x melta gun, MM attack bike

Ravenwing Attack Squadron- 190
2x melta gun, MM attack bike

Ravenwing Attack Squadron- 140
2x melta gun,

Land Speeder Typhoon- 75
TML and Multi-Melta

Land Speeder Typhoon- 75
TML and Multi-Melta

Land Speeder Typhoon- 75
TML and Multi-Melta

That's 1840, add melta bombs or Chainfists as you please. I really like the way this list looks, it addresses the mobility issue you spoke of and has a good amount of melta to help against Guard.

Against orcs remember that the CML does have frag missiles and I have never been too impressed with orcs assaulting terminators, especially if they are in cover.

I don't think this is the greatest list ever but I think it would do good, if not for Grey Knights Looming on the Horizon I would actually try and play it at Genghis.

Zachary said...

the way to for with black templar terminator spam is 2 asssaut cannons in every squad (3 5 man squads and 2 4 man + terminator HQ squads) backed up by what ever, all the termies have tank hunter(!).

Commander_Vimes said...

I agree that the new FAQ has hardly made Black Templar or Dark Angels Deathwing gods among armies, but it certainly did take them from being a joke to being functional. And army of all termies will always struggle with some opponents. When playing Guard or Tau I like fighting against Terminators. Plasma-Broadsides and Demolishers will put saves on everyone in the unit. Kroot and Guard Blobs are excellent counters agiants TH/SS termies. And both armies can put out enough fire to fight a war of attrition simply because they can feed expendable units into the termies, while every failed save hurts the opponent.