Saturday, January 15, 2011

Email in: 2000 point Blood Angel List

Alright, got another email recently (sorry it took so long )-:  ) asking for list advice.  First, here's the email:

Hi, I've been reading your articles on Blood Angels lately and I have been inspired to make an all jump pack list at 2000 points.


The Sanguinor

Librarian-Fear of the darkness, shield of sanguinius, jump pack

4 X Honour Guard, 1 Sanguinary Novitiate, 1 blood champion, jump packs, 3 with power weapons, 1 melta gun


2 X Sanguinary Priests-PW and jump pack


10 X Assault marines-2 melta guns, sergeant with PF and infernus pistol
10 X Assault marines-2 melta guns, sergeant with PF and infernus pistol
10 X Assault marines-2 melta guns, sergeant with PF and infernus pistol

Fast Attack

10 X Vanguard Veterans-Entire squad with jump packs, 2 PW, 2 TH, 2 veteran with infernus pistol

So the thing is i've been wondering if i should drop the Sanguinor for something else? I know it's not the worlds most perfect BA list, but could you help me and give me advice? My regular opponent is a Tyranid player and I'm wondering how this list would work against it? Thanks.

My reply:

Thanks for the email!  Alright, this list actually looks pretty good.  You've got lots of bodies, and lots of melta to help you open tanks.  Quite a few options available to you as well!  As a core, the list looks pretty good.  There are for sure a few tweaks I'd give it though.
To start, the Honor Guard are kind of tooled weird.  They're a great source of melta for your army, but not really a good source for power weapons.  The power weapons seem attractive at first, since they have Furious Charge, and sometimes rerolls to hit.  However, since the Sanguinary Noviate is forced to take boring weapons, when you're attacking a squad, you'll be allowing your opponent's 'most important' characters to be able to take saves, which is generally inefficient.  The same thing applies to your Priest's weapons.  Here's my view on it.

Four Meltaguns on the squad is likely a better fit overall.  If you do the math, 2 meltaguns at close range to a Land Raider have a 33% chance to kill it (and slightly better to immobilize it).  Not great odds at all, really, but 4 melta guns make it double as likely to do something awful to the Raider.  It's useful having those extra melta guns in there, though it really seems like overkill.  If you're playing 'nids a lot, those melta are going to do lots better vs. their T6 spam/instant deathing warriors anyways.  Not that I condone building lists to counter other specific lists at all... but it will help.  The Champion of the squad is, generally speaking, a waste of points.  The extra WS and random ability you gain isn't worth the 20 points you pay.

On the Vanguards, I would advise against the infernus pistols.  Since you're most likely to be trying to assault with them off the jump, the VV will most times not even be able to use their pistols (since they can't shoot the same turn they jump in).  Vanguard Vets are somewhat of a suicide squad, and can't really be expected to do much once they've attacked their primary target.  Kill something to disrupt them, then die a somewhat sad death, is what VV are best at.  Otherwise, they're tooled basically correctly.

A word on Power Weapons vs. Claws, however.  You have the PWs everywhere, and though they aren't necessarily bad choices, Power Claws (for the same price) are always going to be better.  Though the Claws don't give you that extra attack, the reroll to wound makes them mathematically the same as the Power Weapon vs. low toughness things, and they grow lots better against high toughness targets.  Claws are almost always a better choice.  They look cooler too :)

I'd say either Sanguinor OR Mephiston fits here reasonably well.  It just depends on your playstyle.  Meph is a beatstick, and Sanguinor makes your guys better, and gives you a mini-character.  Remember that since it has to be random, your upgraded sergeant may end up being the VV sergeant, who may end up suiciding.  Maybe that's what you want, maybe not, but it's something to think about.

As for specific use against 'Nids- you've got some good stuff here to help deal with them.  Mass meltas, along with lots of fists and attacks are all great things to have.  One thing I'd advise (just in general really) is putting Hammers on your assault squad sergeants.  It looks cooler, and it helps against monstrous creatures pretty excellently, since it makes them strike at I1, and guarantees that you'll get another swing at them with your hammer instead of being insta-wiped the next turn.

The way I generally approach playing against 'Nids with a fast assault-oriented force, is to pick one flank, and start everything there.  Then, you focus fire one squad/MC until it's dead- having multiple sort-of-wounded MC's running around is exactly what the 'Nid player wants- taking a single big guy out for good can really hinder their overall effectiveness.  Remember- melta does wonders vs. MC's, and your assault troops with FNP are better vs. their troops than most other anti-horde out there.  

Overall, I like your force composition a lot.  The unit tweaks will help to optimize your list, and enable you to do some good stuff.  I think (with a little practice of course) that this list will serve you well.  Thanks for sending it in- any other questions for me?  I'll be happy to answer.

Anyone else have something to add?


Black Blow Fly said...

1) Mephiston is a bad choice for all jump armies. If you decide to deepstrike your army... That right there should tell you something.

The Sanguinor is the best choice for a jump army such as this one. He is a scary close combat monster and buffs your army.

2) Here is how I run my Libby and HG:

Librarian - Epistolary, jump pack, Unleash Rage & Sanguine Sword

Honor Guard - jump packs, banner
HG#1: pair of lightning claws
HG#2: lightning claw & stormshield
HG#3: lightning claw & stormshield
HG#4: thunderhammer & stormshield

On the charge this squad is rocking the following:

6x S10
16x S5 (reroll hits & wounds)
5x S9

All attacks ignore armor saves and reroll all missed hits. It's not a big deal that the Novitiate is swinging a chainsword - this unit hits like a ton of bricks. Sure it costs some points but I think it's the best deathstar anyone can come up with for BA.


Sgt. Brisbane said...

I would just add that your Librarian should be geared for CC murdering with Unleash Rage and Sanguine Sword.

Preferred Enemy is nasty, especially when coupled with claws and Sword gives your Librarian a S10 attack at initiative against those MCs that you're trying to take out. Win/win.

Nice list and nice suggestions :)

Commander_Vimes said...

I think Shield of Sanguinius is a solid choice on a jump pack librarian in general, but it's next to useless against Tyranids because they have so little AP3 shooting. Fear of the Darkness is likewise poor because most things are fearless.

Unleash Rage is probably the best power you can take for any circumstance. It basically turns your librarian into a Chaplain with Psychic defense and another cool power.

In an all comers list I think Unleash Rage and Shield of Sanguinius are a good combo, because you get to use both without having a to be an Epistolary. Shield on your opponent's turn and Rage on yours when you charge.

Xaereth said...

I'm not as sold on Sanguinor in this list vs. Meph. If Meph can't keep up (which he usually *will* be able to), he adds the sort of combat punch nothing else in the army (Epistolary included) can dish out. BBF seems to like his squads expensive, which isn't a bad choice, just different from the approach I take to the game. I like more units vs. more powerful units.

I agree with everyone's observations about Unleash Rage on the Libby- I also think that the shield is equally viable in a take-all comers list, since as the entire army is full of jumpers, they're going to need cover from things like plasma spam.

As for Vime's suggestion on taking on 'Nids- I completely agree with his assessment that those two powers are somewhat useless vs. Nids. I specifically didn't say something, because I don't think that tailoring lists to beat a specific army is the way to do things- but yeah. Vimes is exactly correct in what to take if you only play against 'Nids.

Thanks for chiming in, everyone :)

Tony said...

hi thanks for responding to my email! i thought about the idea of using the sanguinor, i really liked it and then realized that i had forgotten that he doesn't have the IC rule, so i immediately ditched him.So i came up with a new list:

Librarian- shield, unleash rage, JP
Librarian- unleash rage, sword, JP
Honour guard-JP, 3 melta guns
Honour guard-JP, 3 melta guns
2 X Sanguinary priest-JP
10 X Assault marines- 2 meltaguns, PF
10 X Assault marines- 2 meltaguns, PF
10 X Assault marines- 2 meltaguns, PF, infernus pistol
Fast attack
10 X Vanguard Veterans, JP , sergeant with LC, 3 LCs, 4 SS, 2 PF

So the plan is to combat squad everything so assault squads split into suicide melta squads and cc squads. The vanguards split so that there is 2 veterans with LCs, 2 veterans with SS and 1 with PF.
Should i drop 1 sanguinary priest for more upgrades on the HG, assault squads and meltabombs on the vanguards?

Xaereth said...

Heh, to be honest, I don't like the Storm Shields in the Vanguard Veterans. You either need to go full out or not at all. As it is, you're trying to make a suicide squad a little more survivable, which they won't really be, but they'll still cost a lot of points to use.

It looks like a good jump list, with lots of melta and all- I just sort of question the Vanguard Veterans. They seem conflicted at the moment.

Also, the dropping of infernus pistols makes me a little sad- they help add anti-death star/anti-MC to your army that has no real unit that can deal with that. Against Nobs, 'Nid Warriors, etc. you sort of need that kind of equalizer- it's not really a 'fair' fight if you don't use it :-p